Michael Stein is the founder of Members Only Software, providers of a customized Business Process Management software suite for non profit organizations and business associations.

Based in Washington D.C. he is an active participant in the non profit technology assistance community. He also writes Michael Stein's Non Profit Technology Blog.

We talked about his work, how the shift towards ubiquitous broadband is changing what he does for his clients, his affinity for wikis and why he believes organizations should be embracing Web 2.0 technologies as part of their basic effort to communicate effectively online.

Table of Contents

You can follow any of the following links to skip to a particular part of our interview. Your browser's back button will return you to this table of contents. My favorite section is the last one.  The "don't miss it" AHA moment is here - so if you're only going to read part of this, don't leave before you read that part.

1. Introduction to Michael and his work 
2. The Move Towards Hosted Web Applications
3. Using and Trusting Wikis 
4. Web Site Visions: Bread, Butter, Content and Syndication

 

 

Introduction to Michael and his work 

 

Marshall

Perhaps you can start by telling readers about yourself and where you stand occupation/interests wise relative to the web and web 2.0

Michael

First part is much more straightforward to answer

I run a little software development company called MEMBERS ONLY SOFTWARE.

We provide applications for a range of organizations - advocacy groups, professional societies, trade associations, think tanks, etc...

It is a modular app, users select the components they need -

CRM, membership, Meetings and Events Management, Order Entry and Inventory, Subscriptions, Fundraising, etc.

and we do a lot of customization

Marshall

does it include Content Management System options?

Michael

yes. That's one of the few modules we did not develop ourselves.

We are reselling a product called Streamline. We have worked on a number of client projects with the developers of Streamline, who like us are willing to customize, link with other tools, etc

Marshall

How long have you been in this business?

Michael

Well, like a lot of folks I started out accidentally.

In the 1980s, I was organizing as a community organizer around health care issues, earning $0.00

To make some money, I started doing freelance technical writing.

I bought a TRS Model III from Radio Shack to write on, and wrote a program on it to bill my customers.

Two customers asked to buy the program, and I was started.

Marshall

And you've decided to stick with it.

Michael

it just grew.

We are at the moment eleven people - we've been as big as 14.

Marshall

What do you get out of it personally, besides a way to make a living?

Michael

Well, although am a true nerd at heart and love the programming, what I really like best is when we can work with an organization to find creative solutions to real problems that they are facing.

Marshall

Any recent interesting examples available?

Michael

We do a lot of work with YMCAs.

One of our Ys (actually one I did a post about on Net2) with 14 branches has a scheme where you buy either a branch membership or an entire association membership good at all 14 branches

Just this morning they called and said they need to change the card scanning program to allow some branches to not accept the metro-wide membership, and to allow members with just a branch membership at a branch that is under construction to go to any branch.

Talking to them, we arrived at a scheme where we can add a few fields to the setup of each branch that will allow them to customize these rules however they need to.

Marshall

That does sound satisfying.

 

The Move Towards Hosted Web Applications

 

Marshall

So are your clients and software changing a lot because of new connectivity/broadband or other new technological changes?

Michael

very much so.

Marshall

What sorts of things are becoming possible in your field?

Michael

Our core applications are Windows apps, and in general are hosted in-house by a client.

But we are pushing more and more functionality to the web

Marshall

How do established, large non profits seem to feel about this? (hosted web apps)

Michael

We make a distinction between the applications meant to be used primarily by staff, and those meant for the general public.

We have not found are clients eager to move their core business apps to the web.

But there is more and more functionality they want to extend to the web for their members and supporters

Marshall

Are core biz apps on the web something you think can work well, will we see more of it in the future?

Michael

I believe we will see more and more hosted apps.

But I think at the same time the "web" as we know it may become less and less important....

what is the web - is it the internet viewed through a browser?

Other clients can be used just as well.

Marshall

I do want to follow that, but first What do you tell people who are concerned about the security, stability and lock-in concerns they might have about hosted web apps for key functions?

Michael

They are all issues. We use a service-oriented approach to our web apps

That means instead of having a SQL client on the web server, we just make specific calls to the SOAP service.

So even if a user takes control of the web server, they cannot make unauthorized queries.

that's a big part of our security strategy.

Marshall

Do you mean that the processing functions are done on a remote server but the data is still client side? (I hope I'm getting my terms right here.)

Michael

in our case, yes.

the data base server is housed at the client's facility.

Some of our client's also house their own web server, but most do not.

so the webserver requests or updates data from/to the data base server via a SOAP call.

Marshall

And what are the advantages of any of this instead of just putting the darned program on my computer in house?

Michael

Well, it depends.

If we are building an application the is public facing, and we want as many of our constituents to be able to say, see our publication list or register for our seminars, we want a browser based app.

But in many of this cases, we need that app to be connected to the database live.

I keep coming back to the YMCAs - they want people to register for classes over the web.

But they face liability if, say, a swimming class if oversubscribed.

So when the last seat fills, nobody else can register. The inhouse system, and the public-facing system need to share a database.

Marshall

So that's a case where the public will be able to register via a website hosted on a 3rd party server, but that's connected to the Y's database at all times.

In a secure manner.

Michael

Correct. We have a YMCA in Massachusetts who has their website hosted in Iowa, for example.

Marshall

Is this the kind of thing people are talking about when they use the phrase "thin client computing?" Or is this different?

Michael

that is a different thing -- and one I expect to see grow in importance.

Marshall

What's the difference and why is thin client looking to grow in your mind?

Michael

Thin client computing means that the user's PC is functioning as a terminal for a program running on a server elsewhere.

Marshall

But in this case the PC is also connected to an inhouse database?

Michael

The YMCA I profiled on Net Squared uses a thin-client approach.

What it means for the user is they can host an app that is not a web app. It can be a Windows app.

We have a Jewish cultural organization based in New York city that has people working out of their homes in four different cities.

They liked our meetings management system but needed to get to it from all over the place. So we host it for them, even though it is a Windows app.

we are using Citrix to do this.

Marshall

So you said that clients other than web browsers are likely to increase in importance too. Does this mean cell phones/mobile devices? How do these other clients play into this?

Michael

you know, the mobile device arena is one I have yet to get very involved with.

We have had some users interested in interfacing PALM devices with our application.

I expect this will grow rapidly as well. People want to go offsite without a lot of equipment and access data from the home net.

for example, you are giving a class and want to record which registrants have shown up, and who still owes money.

Also, I think we will see, on PCs, more internet based apps that do not use the browser.

 

Using and Trusting Wikis 

 

Marshall

I see you've been writing about wikis lately, for internal knowledge development, sharing etc.

Michael

Yes. I like the wiki. There is really a thin line between the wiki and a CMS [content management system], really

In my mind, the wiki emphasizes collaboration and the CMS, control.

Marshall

I was going to say- isn't a CMS all about its structure? Aren't wikis scary because of their structurelessness?

Michael

They are scary only if used for the wrong thing.

And of course, the wiki is not totally structureless..

Marshall

How's that?

Michael

The wiki we've been playing with lets you decide which users can edit, which can only view, for example.

On the other hand, our CMS lets you have authorized users who can edit but not publish. A publisher needs to approve their changes before they appear. So it is much more controlled.

The bruhaha over Wikipedia is very interesting.

The wiki is a new medium. I think society will need to learn how to deal with the possibility of error or vandalism in the wiki, without disregarding it as a valuable source of information. It's really just a different form of "don't believe everything you read" - different enough that we need to learn how to deal with it.

In general, how do we evaluate the quality of a read-write medium as an information source?

Marshall

It's so much easier to not have to believe what you read if there's a page history available!

Michael

maybe.

Marshall

I think wikis are much more robust quality-wise than people give them credit for.

Michael

But if I look up a subject, and see that SamK has added a paragraph, and I do not know who SamK is, how do I evaluate is text?

Marshall

There's a continuum of credibility

unsigned, unsummarized changes are the low end

Michael

I have a high level of trust for the information in Wikipedia. I use it all the time. But I would not go out on a limb without a second source.

Marshall

and changes clearly explained and justified by users with bios and contact info attached to user name are the high end

and most things are in between.

Michael

You are right - and that is true in less modifiable media as well.

Marshall

Yah, I use Wikipedia all the time too - but would check with other sources before betting the farm.

Michael

So its not that learning how to evaluate an information source is a new task - its just that we have to extend these skills to different kinds of media.

Marshall

Makes sense, and there's the break down of traditional structures of authority around info there.

Michael

exactly.

publication is so easy now.

Marshall

what about content portability

is content put in a wiki stuck in the wiki?

if a group's use of the wiki dies down, are there wikis that you know of, say publishing content in XML or anything else?

Michael

The EditMe application I've been talking about stores its pages in a MySQL database, and you can download it as tables.

They also have an RSS feed capability.

XML is used internally by Editme

because the page layout is an XSLT transform

So I assume if you needed it, they could export the entire sites as XML

 

Web Site Visions: Bread, Butter, Content and Syndication

 

Marshall

So you're the bread and butter guy...but here you are stepping out on a limb with one of the most uncontrolled new tools emerging! [wikis]

I know you've emphasized caution when advocating adoption of Web 2.0 tools by non profit organizations.

You've said that what's most important is to look to the bread and butter issues - so why are wikis looking promising to you in this way?

Michael

My Bread and Butter emphasis is not a dislike of new tools. Rather it is a focus on looking at what problems non-profit organizations are currently struggling with.

TechSoup, by the way is currently running a survey on what issues NPOs see as their big tech challenges. I helped them put it together, and I'm very eager to see the results.

Marshall

So how does the field look to you today (perhaps before the survey?)

What tools look like fruitful ways to solve real problems and which ones don't?

Michael

Well, as the recent Net Squared survey showed I think CMS is very important and lots of folks are not using it.

People jump through hoops just trying to update their website.

Marshall

Yah, that survey surprised me a little.

Like nobody said resyndicating content via RSS had a lot of potential for Non Profits...

I think that's a great idea myself!

Michael

Its a great idea if they have the content. We have one client who set up a CMS with a blog-like front page. This is an organization with a staff over over 100. Their goal is to add a front-page article once a month but they often fail.

Obviously if they got a content stream going, they ought to syndicate it!

Marshall

And resyndicating things like news searches about your issue in your community can help a group add value for site visitors.

Up to date public education on your issue of choice is now essentially automatable on one level.

Michael

now that is true....

and it is a great way to solve part of the content creation problem...

But Marshall, you have a huge capability to take in streams of information.... I think a lot of people already feel overwhelmed with how much info they are expected to absorb.

and find the idea of subscribing to feeds a terrifying thought

Marshall

For sure. How about a news wire on your environmental group's site that syndicates any time the local forest is discussed in a yahoo news search.

Is that more reasonable and worthwhile sounding?

Michael

I agree that doing that is very valuable.

or displaying a custom tag from del.icio.us so you can flag articles of interest to your community.

Marshall

People usually have an "our group in the news" section, but it's often out of date and must take more time than it ought to if it was automated.

Michael

That's where the Resource page on my website is done.

Marshall

Tagging items into a feed - that's totally a good way to do it.

And if you construct a good search query for audio search on your topic in podscope or blinkx - who wouldn't like to be able to download audio about your group's topic?

Having that appear on your site automatically would be fantastic - or reading the feed yourself and tagging anything that looks valuable into a separate feed that's then syndicated on site.

Michael

I think a lot of NPOs fail to understand their website as a principal way they build their constituency. I think a great many still see it as an electronic brochure.

Michael

for example -

I tried to talk one of my clients into blogging and they said they were afraid it would attract so many people to their website that they would need to raise their bandwidth.

They did not understand that would be a "good problem"

Marshall

Well, one of the key audiences for Net Squared is early adopters in orgs who are looking to build support in their org for use of new technologies

so, outside of folks concerned about too many visitors,

how can that point on building constituency vs. a brochure be fleshed out as a talking point?

Michael

Our clients with the most active websites are adding, in addition to their brochure-ish stuff, various forms of non-profit e-commerce - register for our meetings, make a donation, buy our publications.

But they are not providing information services, which is what all the blogging - wiki - rss stuff boils down to.

Marshall

Why should they?

Michael

In order to raise their visibility in the larger community that exists around their issues. In effect, for the same reason they have static pages about who they are.

Marshall

That's awesome.

So what's the #1 first step you'd recommend?

Michael

I'm still taking in what I just said.

Marshall

right on

Michael

I think a first conversation might be around "what is the reason you have a web site?"

instead of saying you ought to do this or that.

so if they say, to educate people about the danger to our local forest, then you can say, well, let's think about all the ways to do that.

Marshall

are they going to need to be just plain excited about the tools themselves, though, in order to feel ready to make the kinds of changes it could take to engage with them?

Michael

Have you ever read the book "Crossing the Chasm: marketing and selling technology products to mainstream customers" by Geoffrey Moore?

Marshall

no

Michael

It's basically a marketing book...

he talks about how when a technology is new, you are working mostly with early adopter styles

who are excited about the technology, and willing to experience a certain level of disruption to incorporate it.

Later, you are working with slow adopters who just want results. So the type of service and product provided need to be different.

I have seen this over the years I've been dealing with technology.

Marshall

Where are we in that timeline now?

Michael

We would put in tools for someone, and if we had to tinker with it every day for a good while to get it right, that was part of the fun.

Now, with core applications for non-profits, we find much less tolerance for bugs, and for downtime.

I can see a lot of our users, if they put a feed on their site and the next day the site reported the feed was having a problem, they'd remove it immiediately.

Marshall

Would that be a mistake?

Michael

Well, I'd think so -

But the difference between a conversational site and a "this has to be perfect" electronic brochure is a cultural jump

Marshall

And that cultural change, is it going to happen?

How likely is it?

and is it at odds with a larger social context of fear, control, authority as safety, etc?

Michael

I think at this time it is the smaller NPOs that are the most likely adopters of the edgiest technology. Just a guess. But they have "less to lose" if their site seems unstable, or if some users don't recognize that a feed might go down and it's not their fault. While a larger, older organization may have a major image to maintain.

Marshall

But groups like the American Cancer Society or March of Dimes can launch experiments in entirely different ancilary sites.

with staffing and patience and expendable funding to try out new things.

Michael

that's true - and March of Dimes has that great community story project (Share Your Story).

 

 

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